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Chris visits with the First National Bank Chief Lender Matt Bennett about our takeaways from our Jolene Brown Seminar, "If We Huff and Puff, Will We Blow Your House Down." Find out how to build a business-first family business that will survive the challenges and surprises that always pop up.
Welcome to DreamMaker. A podcast brought to you by first national bank of Syracuse at F and B. We strive to make sure that every life we touch is improved. Join us for each episode. As we cover a wide range of topics from financial wellness and marketing to mental health and ways to enjoy life over, we're all we may even teach you a thing or two about cultivating healthy soil. We are here to improve your life. And so glad you've joined us today. Now, here are your house for today's episode of dream maker.
Speaker 2:Well, welcome to this week's episode of our dream maker podcast. I'm Chris Floyd present CEO of the first national bank and with me this week, a, uh, special guest. So we have Matt Bennett. He is our chief lending officer and Matt works out of our east side branch there in garden city. And, uh, this week, our topic is our Jolene brown seminar that we had just right before Thanksgiving. Uh, Jolene specializes in farm family, business transitions, and, uh, helps, uh, she consults families kind of get through the process of how they do that. So, uh, was a really good seminar. And so Matt and I thought, we'd just get to hear and talk about, you know, things that, uh, that we liked from it. And there things that we thought we may be of value to you guys. So, first of all, man, I didn't worry about this very good, but why don't you kinda give us a little history and tell us a little bit about you in case, um, somebody hasn't got to work with you yet.
Speaker 3:Sure. Thanks Chris. Well, hello everybody. Like Chris said, my name's Matt. Um, I'm at our east branch in garden city. Um, worked for the bank for well, a long time now, but probably 16 years or more, uh, farm kit from central Kansas. So grew up on a farm north of lat. Uh, so worked on the farm up until college, went to school at, uh, Pratt community college for two years. And then for a state, um, played a little baseball along the way. And then, uh, got my degree in finance from Fort days. Um, started my career so shortly as a commodity broker and, uh, got good experience there, but figured out I was take a while to, uh, make much money at it. So I ended up taking a bank job and been in banking ever since.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so a lot of good experience. And uh, so when did you start banking? I've kinda
Speaker 3:19 98 98.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so you're like shoot way over 20 years now. So I'm about to catch up to some of the rest of us.
Speaker 3:If there's video on this, you could see all my gray hair and you have some experience. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, so one of the things I had started with that, I really, I guess, especially the first time I heard Jolene talk, was it really kind of hit me I guess. And part of it too is like, you know, I'm kinda like you grew up on a farm and you know, and so kinda probably one of the more, uh, family oriented businesses where there's a lot of family businesses, I guess, are farms versus some others we run into was, you know, she kind of really
Speaker 3:Talked about the concept of having a business first family versus a family first business, and essentially kind of how you get that wrapped around of, we need to run this as a business first and then, you know, not<affirmative> just your family, I guess there's a way to do that. I don't know. What'd you think about that matter? How does that, does that kind of make any sense to you two or not or what'd you think? Yeah, it made a lot of sense and you know, um, whether it's a farm or any family business, I think, um, well a lot of times the next generation just kind of as whatever dad did or grandpa did, you know, and that's just, well, that's the way we've always done it. And dad didn't talk about that stuff, so I'm not gonna bring it up. And, you know, so I thought it was a good point and Jo has some good stories about that, but, um, you know, I don't know about you Chris, but I think generally people don't like, uh, confrontation. And so, you know, sometimes although it's not the best thing, the easiest thing is just to not do anything or not say anything when it comes to transition or estate planning or anything like that. Um, so I think it's sometimes it's that fear of confrontation that people will avoid the subject. Um, so it's nice when Jolene can talk about it and help people with that saying, you know what, it's, it's great to have a family involved, but you have to run it like a business. Otherwise, at some point you won't have a business left, you know, if you don't put up, you know, set up some good rules and structure to it. Um, so yeah, I, I do agree with that philosophy.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I think you're right on that confrontation, you know, cuz a lot of it, I think of, well, I'm use the example too and talking with some people, like, it seems like we're probably worse with confrontation with our families a little bit cuz you know, you, I, I don't know. Things kinda get personal too fast probably. And mm-hmm<affirmative> and then emotions get involved and then, um, well it's kinda like here to make we're going through that. Um, oh crucial. A conversations book and you know, one thing they talk about that book is emotion. You know, it's kinda weird how our, our mind's hardwired, but when you get emotion and adrenaline and stuff involved, it's like your mind just doesn't work as good. And it kinda yeah. Makes for some bad situations. Well
Speaker 3:It can, especially when you have siblings involved, you know, I think most people that grew up with their siblings, you love'em to death, but they, you fight like cats and dogs. And so, you know, there's that part too, that chapter factor in.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Also it's kinda interesting. I know, you know, with my kids, I don't know about cheer, but it seems like it's amazing how different they are and different skills and different things. And you know, I think in every farm business too, you got family members of different ideas and concepts, which kind of make things a little bit, uh, interesting, I guess you would say, but yeah. Yeah. And too, I like the point. I mean she really made the point that, you know, um, you know, when you separate that, right. I think then, you know, they're always part of the family, you know, that's the kind of unconditional part of being part of a family, right. No matter what happens, you're part of our family and I think that's really key, but
Speaker 3:Well, it's a good point, but I think some people think, well, yeah, if I manage it like a business and maybe this kid just isn't gonna work and the family farmer, the family business, I think their fear is that they're gonna isolate'em from the family and you're right. That that's not the intention. You're still gonna be part of the family, you know, unconditionally, we're gonna love you and you can come to Thanksgiving and eat pumpkin pie, but that's gonna be different than the business side of things, you know, that's hard to do. Yeah. Without,
Speaker 2:Yeah. That is really can be really tough. And cuz everybody has different expectations too. And it's hard to, I guess, have not have the rose colored glasses either where looking what I can do or looking, you know, some what your kids are, uh, uh, even other family members are capable of doing, I guess too kinda gets a little interesting, I would say. But what do you think? You know, because a lot of it, um, I guess there's all kinds of, part of transitions, right? How it trans you know, part of there's a technical ownership transition and then it's how you actually run the business is probably not always thought was probably as most important thing else. What do you think kinda slows people down or, or makes it hard for people to kind of do that?
Speaker 3:Well, that's a good question. You know, um, I'll kinda answer it differently. You know, one of the things Jolene recommends, um, let's say you're one of the kids that wants to come back and work on the farm or whatever business that happens to be. She really, um, recommends the, it, you go work for somebody else for at least two to three years, you know? So let's say you graduate college and before you come back and work on the farm, she is adamant that you go work for somebody else for that two to three years. And I think the more I think about that, the more I agree because you know, then you're gonna go see how somebody else, the us things you're working for somebody else. And that's just different than if you're working for your mom or your dad, you know, it's just different. You they're gonna hold you accountable. And if you show up late, they're not gonna tolerate that where, you know, somebody else might say, oh, that's okay, Chris tomorrow, just me on time. You know? So, so Jolene is adamant on working for somebody else. And I, I really am a true believer in that. It's it installs that worth ethic. You're, you know, you're probably under a little more scrutiny than you wouldn't be with the family. And, but you also learn things to answer your question originally. You know, I think you learn things you can bring back to your family, you know, cause a lot of times farmers are kinda isolated. They run their farm as best they can, but outside of their accountant, maybe their banker, you know, they don't really get exposed to what other people are doing or how they'll run their business or, you know, things that could improve their farm that they're just not aware of. So I think working for somebody else, even if it's outside agriculture will be a benefit as you come back because you can bring back those ideas of, Hey, did you think about this dad? This is how they did it. Maybe we should consider that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's kind of funny when you're telling, when you're talking about that, giving me thinking, that's kind of how I got into banking really was because, you know, working in the summers, uh, on my dad and uncle's farm, he is like, you need to go learn to work for somebody else. And you know, and so I actually went to worked the summer at the bank Syracuse up there a couple summers while I was in college. But you know, it's just different dynamic, you know, it's the first time you ever work with other people, um, and that, you know, kind of different kind of boss or different expectations and yeah, it's, uh, it just changes things the way you think about quite a bit. So
Speaker 3:It sure does. And it's probably hard to do that, you know, cause your guy getting pushed outta the nest and you gotta go do something on your own. Um, so that's probably a little scary. Um, for most people I know it was for me. Uh, but then once you do it, it's like, oh, that wasn't so bad. And then you, you get acclimated. And like I said, it you'll learn. You'll use your entire life, you know, whether it's working for your family or not. Um, you'll learn a lot of things,
Speaker 2:Man. Sometimes I think too is like, you know, for, well, you may think, well, I like this better. And um, and I remember had a conversation with one person talking about how they felt like there was and expectation to come back or they would disappoint somebody if they didn't come back. Mm-hmm<affirmative>. And a lot of times that's not really the case, but you know, it's one of those other kind of call'em crucial conversations you gotta have to. And unless a lot of pressure too, I figure, you know, it's and I'm guilty that, you know, like you meet a kid that's a junior, senior high school's like, what do you wanna be? And where you gonna college? Like, well, that's really not super fair when you think about it, you know, I'd be 17, 18 year old. I got my whole life planned out. It's like, not really, but I think it benefit when you talk about working for somebody else is you see like, well maybe there's other things I like, or maybe like, I really appreciate being on that farm or family business more too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:Hmm. You know, one thing she talked about I thought was interesting that hinders some people from trying to get, you know, getting somebody involved is actually being able to live off that farm. Um, and I was trying to think, you know, I was like, you know, we look at loans every week going through our loan committees and, and or than that really is you're, you know, helping customers. But how, if you had to guess, man, and this is just a wild guess, like how many you think of our farm customers have a very significant amount of the retirement income that would come not from farm assets.
Speaker 3:Um, I would say very few have anything. They, they typically have a lot of equity in their land and you know, they worked hard and built up that equity. But as far as income producing assets outside of, you know, for the farm, whether that's stocks, bonds, you know, whatever, it's a very small amount that we see. Um, and I think that's an<inaudible> because, you know, if you are that generation that's going to retire and hand, hand it over to the next generation. It's, you know, that's scary if you don't have your own, um, financial stability, um, that's scary cuz that's going to make you wanna think, well, what am I gonna do tomorrow if Chris is running the farm and I'm retired. And uh, and that leads me to another thing Chris you mentioned was, um, the number one job of a leader is to replace yourself and whether you're running a farm or a bank or, you know, a big company, we need reminded as of that, as leaders in whatever business, but that's hard because it's like, Ooh, that's kinda scary when you're training your replacement, whether it's a family member or non-family member. Cause it's kinda like your own mortality, I guess I would put it. Yep. And then you, yeah. So that's, that's an important point she made, but yet it's a hard one to, to implement I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I guess, I guess there's probably fear too, if you do too good, a job of that. And then you're like, you know, I'm 50 years old and I just don't have a job anymore.<laugh> right. But uh, but uh, you know, I can remember it's kinda funny grow up what my grandfather grew up on the farm, you know, um, seems like to me, he did a pretty good job of letting go of this stuff and, and uh, cause it was funnest parts for me is like we got to go do the, when I was like growing up, we got to go do the fun stuff. We didn't really have to work super hard, you know, uh, ride around, check things. And you know, he, he did a really good job of just kinda letting it go of that stuff and, and uh, but it's not always hundred percent the case, you know, everybody's different too, you know, kinda what they like and what they feel comfortable with. So right.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Another, another thing she talked about, the hinders transitions is just, um, I think she called it diversified interests. Um, can't remember the term she used, but you know, like, okay, I've done this for my whole life. I'm gonna do something different. What am I gonna do? You know? Cause farmers in particular are notorious for probably not taking the amount of vacations they should or, you know, if they take a vacation it, if they go to a Royals game or something for a weekend and come straight back home and get back to work. So it could be that it's a little bit scary of, okay, I'm gonna transition, but what am I gonna do?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to imagine that, you know, the effort you gotta put in, especially running a far, well, any business really, you know, it's but the farm seems like, you know, there's really some intense times a year that it's hard to yeah. Let go of that really. And um, do stuff during the year I guess would be really hard. So mm-hmm<affirmative> yeah. I could see that'd be really tough. And then a lot of us, you know, a lot of people too, I guess, especially the more, I guess entrepreneurial and the more you're doing, stuff like that, it's almost in a bad way, a little bit that we kind of define ourselves by what we do. And then it's hard to imagine ourselves doing some being, you know, like Chris, the banker, well, what am I, if I'm not a banker, what am I, and, and, uh, that's where I have something else I do. And kind of being emotionally ready, I think is kind of a yeah. Kind of a key deal. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It is.
Speaker 2:Um, one of the things, you know, I thought was interesting and you know, we see this every once in a while on customers that, you know, maybe get partnered up and gotta get split out or, you know, you got a family business that things don't go as planned, but I thought it was kind of interesting how she had different ideas on different ways to get somebody out of a deal. If it doesn't go well, mm-hmm<affirmative> and I thought that was what she called the deadly DS. I'm trying to remember'em all. But, um, um, you know, there may be a different rule. Somebody dies versus if they get hurt or disabled or, you know, I think trying to think, um, hooked on drugs, you get divorced or just get tired of it. Um, but I thought that was kinda interesting how she had that split up where, you know, like, for example, if you just get tired of it lose, they may pay out over 20 years or something versus if you die. Well, you know, there should be life insurance too, to help with that, but right. I thought that was kinda in any ways to go about it. There's just not just one way to help somebody get out of a farm too or other business. But yeah,
Speaker 3:Well that's a good point cuz she mentioned, uh, buy, sell agreements, you know? Cause what, when you move back to the farm, you start a business it's, you know, everybody's excited and things are going well. Um, but then that's the time to be getting your paperwork in order, you know, especially that buy, sell agreement that, okay, we hope everything goes according to plan and we never have to deal with one of the DS you just has talked about, but you know, we're in reality and in real life, you're gonna have to deal with those things. So why not craft your buy, sell agreement as best you can. And you know, your attorney can help you do that and they can make it, you know, flexible to your situation. You know, it doesn't have to be one that just comes off the shelf and um, but she was really adamant about having that buy, sell agreement in place that can help you, okay, this happened, well, let's go to our buy sell, and this is how we operate. You know, it's not like, well, crap that happened. Somebody died yesterday and we have no idea what to do. You know, you're always gonna have that sense of, oh crap, this happened. And you know, you got that fear and panic, but if you have your buy sell agreement and you know, your other things, uh, powers of turning everything in place, at least you have those to fall back on and that's your starting point from how you move forward. Um, and the time to do it when, when everybody's in agreement and live and uh, that's the time to get those things, uh, at least on paper. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Cause you, like you said, you know, to me some, I can't ties into what you really want from that, you know, it's almost like a legacy, right? A lot of farms, you know, they kind of put that together. How, how do they want that to go on? And, and so sometimes you get, you know, if you want to protect that, then you gotta be able to have it set up to where, uh, no matter what those things happen, that, you know, the farm can make it out there. You don't put the farm at risk, I guess. And that's yeah, to me, kinda pretty key.
Speaker 3:Well then one thing I heard from somebody that attended Jolene was just, you know, they made the comment, we had all that in place, but then we kind of put it on the shelf and forgot it. But you know, things change, you know, dynamics, change people get married, you know, people move away or change jobs. And it's always a good reminder, Hey, we should probably dust that off and go visit with our attorney and make sure we've got the changes made, um, in our state plan or our trust or whatever you might be dealing with you it's, it's nice to have it done, but it's, you need to continue to revisit every once in a while and make sure it's what you still want and still fits your situation.
Speaker 2:But you know, one of the things I did coming home, um, was like, you know, she talked about having a inventory of stuff updated and, and you know, I had to go and find my will, well, I found the copy and had one, you know, the original mine saved deposit box, but you know, there's a lot of things that was set up in there was different. You know, both my, uh, mother-in-law father-in-law were live at the time. My kids were little now they're both over 18. And so there's like, Ooh, a lot of changing that needs to get done. That if you don't, you know, you kind of forget about those things that if just don't come back to it, you're, it may not work like you really want to anyway. Right.
Speaker 3:Right. Exactly.
Speaker 2:You know, one of things before I get totally off course here is like, I wonder, um, if you notice this much with customers or not, but, um, she gave a good example like in her farm, uh, her and her husband and, um, they have daughters and um, but they wanted that farm to be available. Like the daughters weren't gonna farm, but they wanted that farm to be available for any of the grandkids. If they wanted start farming, it could use, it could come back and try to farm at some point in time. And so they had a real goal of what they wanted that farm asset or what to be in the future. Do you ever see very customer or what kind of different situations see where that's been pretty well defined or not defined? Or is that a good practice? I guess? Um,
Speaker 3:Well I would say it's a good practice now in reality, I don't, there's a few people to have that well planned out, but I would say the majority of farm families do not have that. Um, you know, it's, it's kinda like, wow, well think about that tomorrow. Or, you know, I, we will figure that out later, now's not the time, you know, it's time to cut wheat or plant corn or whatever. So again, I think it's one of those things that people tend to avoid that, and I'm hoping that it'll work itself out. I won't have to worry about it. Um, so no, I don't see a lot of, I mean, there are a few Chris, but for the most part, I'd say that's an opportunity for most people to do a better job in their, in their plant especi actually, when they don't have kids involved, you know, if you have kids involved, it's a little easier. Cause that's kinda the natural progression. It's those families that, you know, maybe the kids went off to work and they decided, Hey, the farm wasn't for me. Um, that's why I think it is a tough decision when you don't have kids or grandkids. It's like, yep. Okay. Um, who is gonna take over this farm? And if there's nobody you, what am I gonna do? You know, cause most people, that's their pride and joy. They built that farm, put all those assets together over 50, 60 years and a lot of sweat equity in there. And it's hard to give that up or make the decision well that we're gonna sell it, you know? And that's, it seems like most people, Chris and the, where we live or buyers of land and typically don't wanna sell it unless there's a good reason. And so, um, I dunno if I answered your question, but for most, for the most part, most people are aren't as organized as they could be in that, in that area. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, well, and like you said, a lot of people, I think, you know, you go through and you're trying to acquire and build and just sometimes they just, once you're in that bank, you just never get out of that. And uh, so you're always, you just don't know, you just, you know, basically don't stop, but you know, she gave her example. I could think of just several instances around where, you know, we have a lot and maybe it's just kind of, um, I don't know if it's of, uh, just the way, you know, the tough things that keep in small communities together may be part of it. But you know, we have a lot of farms where there's not a next generation there on the farm, I guess, for lack of a better word that, um, so I think it's one of those deals where a lot of people kind that in that mode facing that, you know, what does happen and, and, um, you know, I, you know, I was talking to somebody a little bit a little bit ago and it's like, you know, there's so much to get thrust. You know, when you lose the one spouse goes, it's kind of, there's a lot of tough things that get forced onto the, the remaining spouse and, and a lot of big decisions. And I think if you don't define some of that stuff other upfront, then it could be, you know, I, I think people, spouses get put in the, the surviving spouse can get put in a, a situation that's probably not fair to them. I guess that that makes any sense or not.
Speaker 3:No. Oh sure. Oh yeah. Total sense. It's not fair to them. It's not fair to the rest of the family. Um, but again, I think that goes back to people would rather not think about it, Chris. It's like, oh, I guess I'll let somebody else deal with that. And you know, I bet if they could go back in time, it would, they would, oh man, I wish I wouldn't have done that to my wife or my husband. I wish we would've had things planned out. Yeah. If something happens to them, here's what you do. You know, here's where the safety deposit box keys are. Here's the passwords to, you know, online banking, all those type of things that most of us have to deal with every day. And we don't give a second thought to it, but then you don't wanna think about, okay, if I'm not here tomorrow who would know where that is or who would know those type of things. Cause unless you write'em down and, and have a good conversation, people aren't mind readers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's one of the things that, uh, probably the first thing I did after that seminar was trying to go through. She gave us an inventory of the things you need to be able to find and where they're at. And, and it's kind of a good start, I guess, that when you go through that list, but you know, it kind of makes you think can go find those things a little bit. And um, you know, I, you, of course I live out in the country. So, um, you got, you know, there's a guy that works on our water. Well, the guy done all electricity stuff and little things like that. Do you think if, you know, it could be a real pain or a lot easier, somebody actually knows that stuff, you know? So yeah. You, um, yeah, it really makes you think of that.
Speaker 3:Well, and I'm kind of jumping around on you, but something, uh, well, so this is the second time we've had Jolene. Right? We had her, um,
Speaker 2:Second, maybe three times, I think, maybe three times.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So the last time we had her was two, three years ago, I believe. And you know, when I went to that first meeting, uh, we were at our tables and, you know, I was the one that had to raise my hand when she asked about estate plans and who's got something in place and I was one that didn't. So, um, so it was eye opening to me. So then my wife and I, we went and visited the attorney. We got our plan in place. And um, so I feel much better, but my point is, what I'm trying to say is some people may think, well, I don't know exactly how I want things, so therefore I'm not gonna go call my attorney yet until I know exactly what I want. Well, you know, we have a saying Dunn's better than perfect. So I would encourage everybody, even if you haven't started or don't know what you want to do, at least start the conversation with your Alice and your attorney, whoever just to get it started and get something started. It won't be perfect the first round, but at least you'll have to start and then you can always tweak it later. But, uh, I'm so thankful we did that cause it it's nice feeling, knowing all that's done. But, um, but the other cool part was, was when we were at the meeting at our table, Jolene had, um, people hold it. So we had partners that were discussing the things and she, I don't know if she called it accountability about, but that's the term I use, you know, somebody to follow up and hold you accountable for what you agreed to do. So there was a lady that was at our table and she came in the bank maybe a year later and said, Hey, do you remember me at your table? And oh yeah, I do. She said, Hey, did you get your trust in wills place? I said, yes, I did. And I really appreciate you checking on that cuz you know, that's cool. She held me accountable saying, Hey, I'm gonna take action to get something started.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good. Cause I remember, you know, they kinda remind me cuz my cousin Clint is an attorney. So I took my pile of papers over to him and, and we was talking about it and he said, that's amazing how many wills and things that he works on. And, and a lot of times he said usually the biggest hangup is how do you handle the um, oh, CU minor, CUSD up with the minor kids. Right. Mm-hmm<affirmative> and there's a lot of'em they get to that part and they can't make a decision and you know, they just sit there and it's like, you know, it's amazing the number of deals he does. He said that don't get a hundred percent finished cuz they got, you know, hung up on a little ideas here or there, but yeah. Um, but like he said, I think, yeah, done's better and perfect. You, you better just pick something and then, you know, change it as you go. Um, and I think we kind of did that. My wife and I that, um, you know, the first way we had it written for our kids to go was not how we wanted it later on. So mm-hmm,<affirmative>, you know, those things are changeable as long as you're around to do it, I guess, but right. Um, but yeah, just to keep that friend of mine, what's all there and what you need to change.
Speaker 3:So, you know, speaking of children, Chris, I don't know if you remember, but she talked about, I think there was four things, um, in her opinion is what we owed our children. You know, if you remember that part or what your thoughts, but you know, I think some of us think, oh, we, we owe our children a, you know, free education. We owe'em a brand new car when they graduate high school and you know, the latest iPhone, um, just cuz we wanna be the best parents we can, but Jolene had a different opinion and I dunno what you think. But one of'em she mentioned was the opportunity for an education, you know, which isn't the same as fully paid, you know? So the opportunity to go to school and you don't have to pay for it, but at least you gave them the opportunity, maybe help'em a little bit, um, help them apply for student loans or whatever the case may be. But at least give them that opportunity and, and college isn't for everyone, you know, maybe it's a trade school or something different that fits that, that kid's specific needs, but at least they have the opportunity. Um, the other one, another one she talked about was, um, that legal and estate plan, you know, kinda like we're discussing you owe it to your kids to have that in place. So they don't wake up one day and mom and dad are gone and they're just, okay, we got a blank page here, where do we start? And then another thing she actually was a listing. Oh the other thing, another thing she mentioned was listings details beyond the will. So, you know, kinda like we're talking about where's the, you know, the password to whatever it might be or you know, those type of things that wouldn't be in the will, but still things you need to know, you know, just day to day stuff that mom or dad handled that nobody else would know where it's at. You know, life insurance policies, you know, long term care insurance, all that type of stuff, you know, various stock accounts, you have, you know, CDs at the bank, those type of things that, um, and dad would know where they're at and know exactly how much they're worth and those type of things. But did you write it down or at least let'em know who to call so they can know where those things are at.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's kinda amazing though, you know, over the years, how many times, um, somebody's died and then the kids are looking for like CDs or who not in a lot of different banks and, and there's yeah, just don't have that list of information. So the kids, like, I just don't know what is where and so it happens important what you think. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3:Sure does. Sure.
Speaker 2:Like, like what you said about the opportunity for education, you know, I think, um, um, it's amazing. I saw article about wall street journal talking about how, uh, student debt crisis, I guess, and you see some of that, you know, they just, uh, you know, the one tough thing is you get paid everything or you can borrow everything for going to school. And if you don't make some good choices, you can get way too much borrowed for not and get the return on your money coming back out. So there's a lot of, lot of things there to go into that, that, like you said, it's kinda, yeah. And everybody has their own level. What opportunity is, you know, how much they wanna help or not help or how they make that work. But yeah. Yeah, given stuff I think usually is not real good, but
Speaker 3:No, and we're all guilty of that. I mean, we're all wanna have the best for our kids and wanna give'em everything that we can. Um, but sometimes that's not the, not the best long term plan
Speaker 2:And everybody's trying to figure out what's the best they can at the time. And just kinda, I dunno, it's, it's, uh, not really all, lot of stuff's not gotten right. Either makes a little tough, but, or else we got written that book already, probably out, I think, but<laugh> yep. Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah. We wouldn't be bankers anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah. One of the things I was going through with my notes too, is, um, how to, you know, one of the things that challenges, I think of our farm businesses, I guess maybe a long way to get the question, but is, you know, scale seems to be more important, right. And how much, you know, the way the fit, you know, you have to be fairly efficient around your expenses, on your farm to be efficient at, you know, uh, producing crops, good at producing crops and livestock or whatnot. But, um, you know, a lot of, um, entails having more people, right? Not just, you know, man, you yourself by yourself, running the business. And um, and especially, I guess in, you know, get the bigger families, you know, who's in charge of what gets to be a trick. And I really liked how they, she defined that in a chart. So everybody knows who's making decisions. Who do you talk? Who do you consult with? And, you know, I thought that was kinda a, at least you have something on paper. So everybody kind of knows. There's no guessing, right. Who's in charge of what, but
Speaker 3:Right. Yep. Yeah. And I think part of her chart, if I remember right. Was, um, so she kinda had four categories if, if I remember right, like who's responsible, you know, ultimately the buck stops here type of person, like whatever category it is, they're in charge of that. Um, and then another category was, uh, work. Uh, the other was consult and then it's the four categories I remember. Um, and there can be multi, I think there can only be one R per category. So if it's, you know, which seed we gonna plant this year, it's probably one person gonna make that decision. Uh, but he may consult he, or she may consult with other employees, but probably one, one R
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. That's good too. Cuz some level they may, you know, Hey let's what do you think about this? Or, or even that inform like, Hey, this is what we're doing. So they know. Right. And yeah, I thought that was, we said, uh, who's responsible, who's consulting informed and what was it? Oh, doing the work. That was the other one. Yeah. I was responsible for doing parts of the farm, but yeah. And you really think about, there's just a lot of moving parts, a lot of farms and especially, you know, the ones that have, uh, livestock involved in well or other kind of sideline type businesses like sell on seed or who knows what else? That a lot of moving parts. So
Speaker 3:<affirmative>, well then the financial side, you know, not only dealing with the banks who does that or who handles crop insurance or who handles FSA, you know, there's all that stuff that, um, probably most people would rather not do that if they had their choice, they'd probably be rather out, you know, the production side, you know, whether it's on the livestock or the crop side and they'd probably rather not do the, all the paperwork, but somebody has to do it. That's becoming more and more important, um, these days. So it's good to know who's gonna do that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Probably you don't see kids coming outta school. I wanna be a, why do you wanna be a farmer? Cause I love going to FSA office and filling out my crop insurance paperwork, but yeah, if you don't do that right. It could be disastrous. So, um, yeah. One of those things that, yeah, not what you like doing, but you somebody's gotta be pretty proficient at it. So
Speaker 3:Yeah. I was just gonna say that leads into some other suggestions she had for running it like a business, not only so on the people side, that's a very important, so you know, how many, how many farmers or family businesses, do you know Chris that have job descriptions for those various employees?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd say very few really. Huh? That
Speaker 3:Right? Yep. Um, or compensation plans, you know, how are we gonna incent our people? How are we gonna pay'em? How are we gonna incent'em you know, how are we gonna do evaluations? You know, I think I'm proud of what we do here at the bank. You know, we have a pretty good system of how we do our evaluations. We it's very structured. Everybody knows how it works and we do it every quarter. So I we're blessed with that, but how many small businesses are able to do that or, or maybe not able they are able, but how many have those procedures in place? You know, they're doing evaluations with their employees and how does the employee know if they're doing a good job or not doing a good job or their strengths and weaknesses do how many people do that? I, I, I agree to very few, probably do today.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'd hate to think how many actually evaluations are done, but uh, and a lot of it, you know, I think, um, and it, I don't think here matters what business you're in, you know, that, you know, kind of busy and air quotes can get you in trouble. And, and I know there's a lot of things where, you know, they'll, I guess the Oxy ditch story, right. Or something went wrong today, whether it be, and seems like in a farm, a lot of things can go that way where sprinkler brakes, motor goes out, tractor codes flop up and quits, you know, tractor quits running. And mm-hmm,<affirmative>, you know, a lot of things that can happen to get you distracted. But yeah. Keeping track of what's important I guess, is, is really pretty key I would say, but
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yep.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, everything, you know, those little things gotta get fixed, but man, if you lose track of that big picture, you're uh, long term one to really struggle. So yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. The odds are not in your favor. Yeah. That's for sure. And again, that's stuff that a lot of people would. I think it's the fear if I've never done an evaluation, okay. How's this gonna go? Especially if I have to bring up a topic, that's not gonna be a fun one. You know, again, most people would rather not do that, but I think once you do it, or if that business owner would do it and see the results like, oh God, I tackled that and didn't just, you know, wait for it to handle itself. Cause I no really works. But if you tackle it and you handle it appropriately, the, um, benefit of that I think is, uh, kinda like a weight off their shoulders, like, oh, that wasn't so hard and I'm kind of looking forward to the next evaluation, you know? Cause it it's gonna improve our business.
Speaker 2:Yeah. A lot of the things too, if, you know, if you do have, so if you tackle first, once it's level sure. A lot better than when it gets huge and everybody gets, you know, emotional and all that kind of stuff as well. It gets yeah. Gets a lot
Speaker 3:Easier. Well, I think once you get in the rhythm of doing those, you know, it's again on reference the bank, we have a lot of rhythms we do around here, but on the evaluation of, in the people side, once you get in that rhythm, it's, you know, you kinda look forward to those. I know the employees look forward to'em managers look forward to'em, it's a, it's just part of your everyday life and it's, you know, it's not something strange and uh, it's very productive. So once you get in that rhythm, I think people, if they're not doing it now, I'd encourage'em to get started. Um, you will, you will enjoy it eventually. It's a little hard the first time, but second, third times it's much easier.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I love it too. I think it's a good time to get, um, you know, like we eat that busy time, get you well, a lot of times you gotta think strategically a little bit and also about, you know, for an employee and employer both, you know, what do they want and what are they doing? And you know, it's a really good time to sit back and think a little long term too, I think, and get outta, you know, what do I really want outta this position? And yeah. Or from an employer, what do I really need from you? And yeah, the more you communicate, the better off you are. So, And you know, one thing I thought was interesting and I think we've probably seen customers on both sides where, you know, we've had, you know, kids in the farm paid almost nothing. And then you seen'em where they get paid right. Way too much. But you know, and that's part of our advantage, you know, also of working for another business, you kind of figure out what the market is for, you know, whatever your skills are when you come back to that farm too. Mm-hmm<affirmative> how to be fair. Cause sometimes that gets, um, yeah, just not, not what the market based, uh, compensation is. I think for somebody I, that was kind of pretty interesting as well. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, and then what goes into the compensation? You know, is it just a salary or, you know, does the farm provide a vehicle or housing or gas in your vehicle, those health insurance, all those things that go into your compensation, that sometimes people take those for granted, you know, but you, if you go out and work for somebody else, it kinda helps gauge, you know, am I getting paid fairly or am I getting too much or not enough? And why am I getting paid this amount? You know,
Speaker 2:I thought it's interesting too. One of the things you thought when you talk about housing and stuff, is she thought you ought to own your own home or versus having a, I guess, farm provided how house or whatnot, you know, there's how much that security and, um, especially with a spouse, I, you know, I never thought about that that way, but how, how important that would be to have something that's yours, I guess. I dunno if that's, if I said that right or not, but
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well that's a good point. Yeah. If okay. If the farm owns a house and this is where we, we live, what happens if something happens to the farm or, you know, if we don't or if we aren't part of the farm anymore, where are we gonna live? That's not a good thing to be worried about when you go to bed at night. Um, so yeah, that's a good point. Cause a lot of times I think, I don't know what you see, but I, a lot of times the, at least the younger generation probably live in a house that's provided, you know, by the parents of the farm. Eventually they may buy it, own it, but it's usually later on in, in their careers that I've seen.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And sometimes some of those, especially the ones that well there's yeah. All kinds. Some of those houses, aren't real,<laugh> super up to snuff and some'em really, really nice too. So they're kinda all for old base, I think. But,
Speaker 3:Well, I know we had a, I'll switch gears on you, but we had a panel. If, if you, if people weren't at the seminar and um, I thought we had a really good panel of experts. Um, you might remind me who we had Chris, and then we can talk about the importance of him.
Speaker 2:Oh wow. We Michael Schaffer. He, he does, um, merit. His firm is a merit prize. Mm-hmm<affirmative> financial planners. And uh, they actually work with us at the bank here too. We have a couple guys come through the branches. Um, oh, wow. I'm just drawing a, we, we had Jennifer burning.
Speaker 3:She's Anant burning. Yeah. With Adams brown. Well, it used to be Adams brown bar and ball. Now I think it's just Adams brown. Maybe shortened it, but she's an accountant. I think she lives in. Oh, was
Speaker 2:It? Hutchson I think she's in Hutchson now. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:But they have offices spread.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And she kinda grew up on a farm too, if I remember. Right, right. Um, oh wow. Our attorney guy, I just lost his name too. Was it? Um,
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't remember his name yet. He was really good
Speaker 2:To get a plug in for him, but, um, and one of, of challenges I think we had even, you know, uh, it's hard to find somebody very close sometimes experts and, and um, uh, Waserman I think was his name, but is outta he's. He was outta Salina and he was the, the one we could get to camp help and, and he had some good examples of what it would cost to do things and things see, they see is the most important, but oh, they call'em what living wills or whatnot essentially. Right. There you go. And, um, you, you never think of internet. Well, especially like my situation, you know, when we did our wills and all that stuff, you know, uh, my kids were, I don't know, they were, they were minors. I can't think of hell they were, but you know, they're, you know what, 25, 21 and, uh, something happened and there's like, I have no say essentially. Right.<laugh> so, uh, as a parent, even though they, you know, they're not married, they, you know, you know, to me still part of our family or they are part of our family, but you know, still like, you know, that's my kids, but they're old enough. I don't have a say. And so what happens? Yep. If they got in some situation and, you know, medically, what are their wishes and how do you handle that or who can do what? And, um, uh, yeah, he gets some pretty sticky wickets, pretty fast, but
Speaker 3:Really fast. Yep.<affirmative> well, and you mentioned cost, um, you know, that's one thing I think a lot of the audience had questions to them, you know, what's it gonna cost to go set up an estate plan or talk with an attorney or accountant or financial planner and, and, you know, sometimes it's the, it depends answer, which I understand that it depends cause every situation's different, but, uh, but to me it's more of investment, you know, as I don't care if it costs a thousand or 10,000 or a hundred thousand, it's probably all relative in the size of your operation, but man, it's money well spent to have that plan in place and, and deal with somebody with experience, you know, like Mr Waserman or Jennifer, Michael, you know, they've all got a lot of experience and they, they specialize in those things. So, you know, I'd encourage people, you don't have to use them, but anybody that, you know, ask the bank, ask your friends or whomever to get some references on people. If you, if you don't have one today, but like I said, they specialize in those things. They're gonna help you walk through it. Um, they've done it many, many times. And so, um, I'd encourage people to reach out to those experts and hopefully there's one close, but sometimes you do have to reach out for a little farther, especially if you're in a business, maybe that's not a farm, but maybe some kind of specialized industry that, you know, there's experts for that particular industry, whether it's a base accountants, um, those people are well worth it in the long run.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And a lot of times too, and I know it's one thing Jennifer works on quite a bit. It's not just being a tax accountant either. Um, it's actually helping, you know, uh, how do you financially measure how your business is doing and that's um, when do I think we kinda, well, maybe see if you agree or not that consist. We can see some of our customers could do a lot better at, as we go.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, yeah. They manage well, lot of people because this is the way grandpa did it. Dad did it. Their number one goal was to not pay any tax. And so we managed our whole business around not paying tax and I, I don't wanna pay more taxes, anybody. Um, I understand that, but lots of times, that's not the only way to manage your business. It's it's one component, but it shouldn't be the only component. Unfortunately, some people are in that mode and um, if they get a good accountant advise that can help'em okay. That's fine. But let's look at what the business is doing. You know, let's look at our enterprise analysis and see, are we making money? Are we not making money? Or, you know, I don't wanna wait until it's December 30th and do I need to go buy something so I don't have to pay tax. You know, I know that would never happen. But in theory, I think it may happen sometimes Chris,
Speaker 2:Every once in a while. I've heard stories of that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's one of those deals too, that you think, yeah. You're making long term decisions to avoid a short term pain and sometimes that long term consequence out there for long time and they just don't. Yeah, yeah. I'm kinda like you, a lot of people, they just, yeah, it seems like I grew and they were always tax planning trying to figure, you know, but a lot of it's, you know, how do I do this without, how do you tax plan not, you know, pay some or pay enough to, uh, get things going and then without making decisions that yeah. That could actually kind of cripple you for several years too. But yeah. So my, as I going through a list of things, what other, I guess if you had like the one thing I guess somebody needed to do, what would that be?
Speaker 3:Um, well, my number one thing is just get started. You know, if you haven't gotten started with any of the things we've talked about, I, I would encourage you just take that first step and get started. If you're confused outta where to get started, give us a call, we'll help you. But, um, that would be my first thing. Chris is just take that step to get started. Um, start that conversation include the people that need to be included early and often, you know, I think sometimes we try to do things ourselves and have it all figured out perfect. Before we kind of tell everybody else the plan. And sometimes that's probably not the best solution, you know, start the conversation, whether with your spouse, your kids, your partners in the business, whomever, just start that very first conversation. I like
Speaker 2:That. Just get started you on the, the segue with that. I think a little bit sometimes that I guess, as the owner of the business, you know, I, I think don't feel shy about telling everybody what you want that to be, what your intention is, you know, um, you know, a lot of guys spent, uh, um, you know, huge portion of life building something. And, uh, I say just, don't be shy and saying, this is what I want it to be. And, and, uh, don't let your, uh, kids guess, I guess cuz who knows<laugh> what happens if everybody's guessing<laugh>
Speaker 3:Yep. Right. Yep. I like that. I like that a lot. Oh,
Speaker 2:Wrap up here, Matt, like Matt mentioned, um, you know, one of the things we really work on here at the think is, um, making sure we can help facilitate, um, you guys to make your, you know, make whatever you wanna happen happen. And, uh, there's a lot of things that things that pop up and somebody just needs somebody to talk to you. And, and so, uh, we, we can be that someone to talk to you and then help find those experts to do all the legal stuff. So cause nobody likes it when I start practicing law or<laugh> doing stuff like that. So I gotta avoid that'll you guys here and couple weeks and Matt, thank you for us.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having me, Chris.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to DreamMaker making dreams come true. We'd love to connect with you. Find us on social media@fnbwindmillandonlineatfnbwindmill.com heard a topic that could enrich someone else's life, too. Be sure to share this podcast with friends and family and check back regular a leaf for new episodes or subscribe. So you never miss a show. See you
Speaker 4:Soon. I.